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There is absolutely no reason to scoff at this stuff, Chip. Naturally, there's a spectrum of scholarship from just above conservative, to kooky. I think the approach is only considered a maverick one because these guys voice the question that's stuck in the throat of their somewhat more conservative brethren (fundamentalists are on another planet in this regard, btw). One thing is clear- whether or not there's a germ of a real person at the core of Christianity, the Jesus as portrayed in the gospels is a syncretistic invention. There's really no questioning that.

Thanks for chiming in, Jim. I know this is your beat, so if you have any links to suggest for the "sources" section, let me know and I'll plug them in.

Also, I just re-edited the post a bit -- mostly to correct typos.

Well, believe it or not, the first work I usually reference is 'The Age of Reason' by Thomas Paine. It's not particularly scholarly, nor was it meant to be. But it gives a good, Everyman's overview of the obvious fictitious nature of parts of the bible. There are passages that always make me laugh out loud. Here's a sample concerning the rising up from the graves of various saints and prophets, right after the resurrection:

"It is an easy thing to tell a lie, but it is difficult to support the lie after it is told. The writer of the book of Matthew should have told us who the saints were that came to life again, and went into the city, and what became of them afterward, and who it was that saw them — for he is not hardy enough to say he saw them himself; whether they came out naked, and all in natural buff, he-saints and she-saints; or whether they came full dressed, and where they got their dresses; whether they went to their former habitations, and reclaimed their wives, their husbands, and their property, and how they were received; whether they entered ejectments for the recovery of their possessions, or brought actions of crim. con. against the rival interlopers; whether they remained on earth, and followed their former occupation of preaching or working; or whether they died again, or went back to their graves alive, and buried themselves.

Strange, indeed, that an army of saints should return to life, and nobody know who they were, nor who it was that saw them, and that not a word more should be said upon the subject, nor these saints have anything to tell us! Had it been the prophets who (as we are told) had formerly prophesied of these things, they must have had a great deal to say. They could have told us everything and we should have had posthumous prophecies, with notes and commentaries upon the first, a little better at least than we have now. Had it been Moses and Aaron and Joshua and Samuel and David, not an unconverted Jew had remained in all Jerusalem. Had it been John the Baptist, and the saints of the time then present, everybody would have known them, and they would have out-preached and out-famed all the other apostles. But, instead of this, these saints were made to pop up, like Jonah's gourd in the night, for no purpose at all but to wither in the morning. Thus much for this part of the story."

Thanks, Jim. Paine's unpacking of Matthew is entertaining, but I've never had much interest in the inerrancy debate since I begin with the assumption that the Bible is laced with fabulous bullshit. I don't believe in miracles or supernatural healing powers or resurrection or any of it, and if someone tries to convince me that such accounts are literally true, I will become very sleepy. The historical Jesus stuff is different, I think, because it's just plain fishy (no pun). To introduce a bit of perspective, I've never believed that Socrates was a real person; when you read the Greek dialogs and the account of his trial and death, it seems obvious that he was a literary creation conceived as a device through which to do philosophy and impart moral lessons. But Plato and Aristotle and the Stoics and other ancient scribes left behind bodies of writing that are easily distinguished. They existed. Someone did. Jesus reminds me of Socrates.

Of tangential relevance, check out Heather Mac Donald's comment and link over at the Secular Right blog on the "Third Man" phenomenon experienced by people in extreme situations. Makes me think about the "Footsteps" poster at grandma's:

http://secularright.org/wordpress/?p=2567

Key up the Depeche Mode, I suppose.

I figured Jesus was a real guy puffed up through oral tradition. I think I've mentioned before Koenraad Elst's "Psychology of Prophetism" which tries to use some literary analysis to distinguish the original material from the mythic fabrications. An interesting take:
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/pp/index.htm

I just learned that an atheist participant in "The God Who Wasn't There" has converted to Christianity. Razib blames social influence, more specifically Dawn Eden (whom Udolpho seemed to have a special interest in):
http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/08/john_mcwhorter_michael_behe_bl_1.php#comment-1885413

I thought much of the "sayings" of Socrates were made up by Plato, but he was nevertheless real. It would make sense that Plato had a teacher, just as Aristotle had Plato. I think Socrates also appears in some Athenian plays, though in a less flattering light.

My understanding was also that the Gnostic gospels were all written later than the more canonical ones. Also, many Gnostics denied that Jesus had ever died or been resurrected. That would make him too mortal a figure. I've heard others theorize that the original (Jamesian?) Christians did not make Jesus into a deity, but merely a great man (in keeping with the usual Jewish take on the Messiah and how blasphemous it was to try to expand the godhead).

TGGP,

I don't doubt that Plato had a teacher who may have been the inspiration for Socrates -- and may even have been Socrates. My reading is simply that Socrates translates more as a presonification than as a real individual. And of course, it's interesting that he didn't write anything. If the relationship between the literary Socrates and the "real" man were known to be as tenuous as that between Dr. Bell and Sherlock Holmes, or between Samuel Wilson and Uncle Sam, I would say that he is essentially an invention. The Trial and Death "feels" more like a cautionary parable than an historical account. And throughout the dialogues -- as I remember them; it's been a while -- Socrates "feels" more like an embodiment of pure thought. A minority of scholars have held this view for a long time. I don't know that it is correct; I only know that it sounds about right to me.

The dating of the Nag Hammadi texts is hugely controversial in theo-nerd circles, but there seems to be grudging agreement among a plurality of scholars that Christian Gnosticism probably arose from earlier gnostic traditions, and probably most significantly from Jewish gnosticism. I wouldn't hang too much on this, though. I think it's most credible to consider how Christianity could have arisen out of preoccupations simmering in the world of Hellenized Judaism, as a messianic projection. Perhaps there was a guy -- or perhaps there were a number of guys -- who came to be garbled into the iconic Christ figure. But the alternative view that it could have been just another mythic tale rooted in sundry traditions and removed history seems at least as plausible to me. More so when you consider the problem of special pleading; again, if Mithraism had taken root and received the endorsement of the state, I think it's likely that Mithra would have been reified in corporeal form to satisfy the public appetite for a literal foothold. And the same argument would emerge.

The Psychology of Prophetism has been on my long list for a while. Don't know what to make of the Raving Atheist. Ravers rave, I guess.

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